The following was slipped over the virtual transom at the offices of The Voiceover Boblog recently. It makes for some interesting reading and addresses something I’ve posted about a number of times before, in a somewhat oblique way, and gives me an opportunity to post about that subject again. I’ll offer my thoughts after you read this missive.
It has been holiday slow and I’ve been able to spend some quality time ‘market researching’ the voice savvy boards over on 123. It’s always helpful for me to see what talent are talking about.
I see our name pop up a lot and see some concerns I wanted to address. Yes, we do post on 123. and I’ll explain here when and why.
Don’t we have enough talent on board to be able to nail every job ? The answer should be emphatically yes. Unfortunately the answer is no, the old school agency roster has become obsolete for us.
While we will always present our top people in-house and always give those as well as Nancy [Wolfson]‘s people our first look and priority, we are well aware that our clients still expect more and then, even more.
Typically the more ‘saavy’ agency clientèle, want to scour the nation when they cast their vo, as the better and bigger market sounding stuff they can produce, the more likely they can keep their client happy in a competitive virtual marketplace. The regionalism of yesteryear has given way to the virtual globalism today. No spot has to sound like it was created in Farmington, New Mexico ..they can all sound like they were produced in major markets, thanks to the open access to great talent and a wide affordable bandwidth.
People love to gripe and I love it, in fact, I am captain of my own ‘bitch about dem bitches’ squad. Gripe about Big Fish though and I’ll defend us to our open borders, that is my honor and this is my baby.
We have changed with the times, to survive, just as talent have, so we must reach out now to meet our clients needs despite how much more ground we must cover or how much extra labor is involved. We understand that if we cast to the universe for talent, then perhaps some of our clients, at some point, will not feel that they have to. We’ve been successful with that strategy, though we have to put in 3X as many hrs, only so our clients won’t feel the need to list in 100 places.
This is exactly the reason why we post outside our agency in various places at times, only when we know our client will otherwise not feel ‘serviced’, to ultimately bring them around to the idea that we can provide whatever they could possibly need. Next time they may well consider coming to us directly and we can shut down our broadcast systems and do what we do best.Our intention is not to replace or bury our top talent in a sea of applicants for the same $400 gig, but we know that with 123 and other VoiceBAY subscription outlets in the picture to stay, and talent with representation overlapping X10 in some cases, that unless we keep pace and innovate, we’re among a dying breed.
Our time-honored professional casting and representation and negotiating services now wholesaled to you and voice seekers on searchable Internet database sites. Our ability to get you top dollar, now replaced by your ability to offer services for much less. Exclusivity is gone and in it’s place, the opposite of exclusivity and the bargaining power that goes with it, talent have become a commodityWho are we competing with now?
With you (the talent) frankly.
But we’re still kicking and quite hard, we have only changed our ways for the seasons.
Happe New Year.
HATE the HATE in ’08.
Elynne Dale.
owner. The Big Fish Voice Company
I’m sure at least one reason this note was slipped over my virtual transom is because there’s been a certain amount of controversy on the various boards about this matter. This note was not sent to me directly by Elynne Dale, though I am posting it here with her explicit and direct permission.
My point of view on this matter is somewhat different from other’s I’ve seen. I don’t see this as a big deal. I understand that some folks are really upset. I understand most of the reasons why they are upset. I just see things from a different point of view.
The world of voiceover has changed from when I started getting serious about it in 1983. And the pace of change is accelerating. Elynne’s point above that now she and her agency are competing with us, the voice talent, is spot on. I’m very impressed with the brilliant marketing efforts that I see by many of my friends and by other voiceover talent I don’t yet know personally. While I’m sure there are folks who still run everything through their agent, I’m equally sure that number is small and falling rapidly.
For good or ill, we who do voiceover work now are often our own agents and managers; doing not only the marketing, but the negotiation of terms, the editing and delivery of the audio, the billing, the collections and everything else. What we’ve gained in greater independence, we’ve lost in being shielded from these details and routine. You know what I’m saying is true, especially if you’ve been around long enough to remember the way things used to be.
I’m not lamenting here for the old days. I’m just trying to underscore what I see as a valid comment.
All of which brings me to the point to which I alluded at the beginning of this post. There is no competition in voiceover. Oh, there are lots and lots of very talented people. But, none are my competition. Because I am the world exclusive source for voiceovers by Bob Souer. The relationships I’m building are with people who are looking for my voice. I hope you’re doing the same with yours. Because you are the world exclusive source for your voice. Now, in any given year, am I going to book more work and collect more money that you? I have no idea. My focus is on super-serving my clients, providing for my family and keeping my promises. I can’t allow myself to wonder how I’m doing compared to you or anyone else.
This is ultimately why I’m not worried about whether I see an audition I’ve received from Big Fish also posted on Voice123.com. It doesn’t matter how wide the net is cast. If the client is looking for my voice, they’re going to pick me whether I’m in a group of 5, 10, 500 or 11,000. On the other side of the coin, I use the same set of criteria for auditions that come to me from my agents as I do for auditions that come from Voices.com or Voice123.com. It has to be right for me. It has to be something I’m interested in doing. It has to be at a budget level high enough to be worth my time. I hope you apply a similar filter, because without it you’re just setting yourself up for a bunch more effort than necessary…much of it unproductive at best.
Thanks for reading. Comments are open if you’d like to respond. And, my best wishes to you and all whom you love for a very happy and successful New Year.
Jeffrey,
Thanks for the link.
Be well,
Bob Souer
Bob,
Thank you for printing this very important letter on your blog. I want to include part of my response to this original e-mail from Elynne:
“I love what you wrote here, it makes complete sense once it is all spelled out. I’m nostalgic for the ‘old days’ (what, like 6 years ago?!) when clients only went to agents, and those agents knew exactly which voices would work. However, that simply isn’t possible any more. It’s time for us all to adapt to a new way of doing things. Good for you for finding a way to keep the clients coming to you!”
I ended with, “I’m proud to be a Big Fishy” and I am.
Bob, your own thoughts are spot on in my opinion. Go with the change, or find a solution and implement it! It is up to each of us to dig our own path. With knowledge, talent, and professionalism all things in life are possible.
Kara
Kara,
I appreciate your comments a great deal. Thank you for adding to the discussion.
Be well,
Bob
Boy, Captain Short Post, when you let the letters fly, you post some REALLY good stuff 🙂
My opinion on this matter is offered as one of the voice talents for Big Fish…at least I think I am because they’ve not sent me many leads and I’ve secured no business from them (maybe I’ve been fired? “If an agent fires a voice talent in the woods but nobody hears it…is a commission still owed?†HA!). BF hasn’t posted my name on their site with the explanation that clients aren’t listening to on line demos (hmmm). We’ve made no money for each other but as with all agent/voice talent relationships, it always starts as an “if-come†proposition. I harbor no ill will towards them…its just business and that’s cool.
My other insight is that of ignorance to the various message board posts. I don’t spend much time but on one of the boards as the other seem to feature many (but not all) folks who want to be, are hoping to be or who – every now and again – are professional voice talents. Nothing wrong with that except these occasional voice talents have lots of time to gripe and solve the worlds problems on message boards so topics become over blown or dramatic there. I’m guessing that’s the case with this topic as well. Bob correct, as I know you will, if I am wrong.
Agents in general, like Elaine (who’s been very pleasant to speak with the few times I have spoken with her), are in a tough spot. For non-union work especially, they are seen as becoming an unnecessary middle man in the minds of some producers I’ve spoken with. That opinion seems to be based on two things:
1. Extra cost. Producers want to reduce all expenses (as all businesses do) and agent commissions are a quick savings. The ease of one stop shopping at less established or poorly marketed agencies is negated when producers can have a low paid assistant shop for some voice talent “types†on Google. Agents without strong client relationships will wilt. As you wisely point out Bob, no voice actor worth their salt is relying solely on their agents for work. We smarty pants-es market ourselves better than any agent could…actors are selfish by nature so such uno-marketing comes easily to us 😉
2. Cattle call agencies. If you called up my agents, two or maybe three could give you an accurate description of my voice…IF some could remember my name. They take leads and ship them to all of their talent most of the time (not all) with the only filter usually being male or female. I call my agents once a quarter and if some bother to take my call (and they rarely return my call) they’ll be polite but rarely enthusiastic. They’ve got a business to run and focusing on one voice just isn’t profitable. Look, these folks have bills just like the rest of us; I get it and respect that.
Don’t get me wrong; as I have some agents who work very hard…they serve a VERY valuable purpose with both their contacts and their negotiating skills. Some of my agents have been amazingly helpful and aggressive and we’ve made money together.
These are the agents who also respect their roster and don’t troll outside of it, blasting to pay to play sites for a strike on their line. These are agents that establish RELATIONSHIPS with clients (video houses, ad agencies, et al). They also have relationships with their TALENT…they know who I am and what skills I can offer.
They send their production clients voices that will work with the specs they need, not the whole roster (and if I’m not included in a call, there’s a good reason for it…that’s cool). They will call me on occasion rather than me having to call them.
These are the agents that “get it” and I am very loyal to them.
Whether for voice talents or print models or on camera talent…agents are almost forced to see their success as a numbers game…many throw the most stuff up against a wall and see what sticks. Whatever talent “hits†is the agency’s “newest star”. I do not envy agents any more than I envy small to medium sized audio production houses with expensive equipment, heavy leases and a more web savvy client base. Ouch. Some are good, talented people whose competitors are ever increasing.
For the trolling agents (and there are plenty), its a losing proposition…they may win the battle but they will likely lost the war…talents who are made to feel expendable because of the trolling will leave or the reputation of the agency will suffer among quality talents…leaving the agency with second rate voices.
And as an industry, the agency business outside the big three markets is in a state of flux akin to a wind tunnel. With such flux comes new business practices from some quality people who need to change with the times (though trolling for these folks is not a top option). Flux for the lesser quality talent agencies means tough sailing and possibly a sinking ship.
But what the heck do I know, I’m just a silly voice talent! 🙂
Best always,
– Peter
PS- Aren’t u sorry u asked? :))
Peter,
No, I’m not sorry I asked. I appreciate your thoughts a great deal. I actually have only 3 agents, 4 if you count the Pittsburgh and Cleveland branches of The Talent Group separately.
One, In Both Ears, is a very new relationship, but Stacey and her team in Portland have been very pleasant. I suppose it helps that I booked the second audition I received from them. Another is The Big Fish Voice Company. Elynne has been very nice and always willing to respond if I need to talk with her about anything. Again, I suppose it helps that I’ve booked multiple jobs in my first year of working with her.
My first agents are The Talent Group, with offices in Pittsburgh and Cleveland. I’ve already mentioned in my original post why I’ve maintained such a great relationship with them over the years and why I’m so happy to continue to sign with them contract after contract. It’s been a mutually very beneficial relationship.
My hope is to build and keep relationships with a select number of agents, a number small enough that I’m able to actually have relationships with each of them. A pipe dream? Maybe so, but it’s my pipe dream and I’m going to carry on my merry way.
Be well,
Bob
Someone very wise once mentioned to me…
If we aren’t exlusive to our agents, why are they expected to be exlusive to us? If I can go on my own and find jobs, why can’t an agent go outside their roster to find talent?
I’d love to return to the world of exclusive agent- talent relationships…but the world is so vast with the internet and P2P sites, it doesn’t seem very likely.
All great food for thought!
Kara
Kara,
Well said. Thank you for adding to the discussion.
Be well,
Bob
Bob – what a phenomenal community service you continue to offer here – thank you.
Kara – again, you nailed it.
Peter –
Sometimes agents experiment with empowering an assistant to “try out” talent who have randomly submitted to them.
It is a great way for an agent to delegate ground floor tasks and determine whether or not that employee has the instincts necessary to be promoted to agent status.
If talent has ?s about their position at an agency where they find themselves hip pocketed, ?s abt what it takes to make it onto the official roster, etc, I encourage them to email the head of the company and ask.
Not every agent will respond to matters that had been initiated by their assistant, but others might.
In this case, Elynne Dale is the agent who runs your show at Big Fish (careful to spell her name properly should you reach out to her) and her email address is:
bfish@aol.com
Hope this is useful.
Cheers, all.
Happy New Year.
-Nancy
Nancy,
Thanks for your insights and comments, and for adding to the discussion.
Be well,
Bob
Here it is 7 months after this letter was posted and I’m just getting wind of it now. I was posting on Savvy when this spate of attacks hit Big Fish. It seemed odd that individuals were complaining about quality opportunities being given to them and I was vocal about it on the boards then as I am now.
There were some aspects of Big Fish’s fishing that seemed problematic with the huddled masses, such as them taking what appeared to be a bit extra off the top.
Who cares if the end result is that you can be in contention for work that pays 2 – 3 times what these “actors” might normally see posted for the same type of work.
Truth be told, when it comes to my relationships I know that my agents won’t make the most of me, I often wish they did. The more money someone makes from your efforts, the more valuable you are to them.
One can’t also assume that everyone has the same business model and can operate charging the same fee structure. Odd how the same actors who refer to jobs being posted for unlivable wages were the same ones who complained about someone trying to get properly compensated for offering a service.
If there was any issue I might have it’s that I submitted a few times to Big Fish for what turned out to Voicebank or other national casting calls and not that I had an issue with them taking a bigger cut, it’s that they only submit a small percentage of the people who turn in auditions.
Because I didn’t know for sure that I wasn’t submitted I was unable to submit via one of my agents who definitely would turn in my audition.
By the way this has backfired (at least in my case) because I no longer submit to Big Fish and wound up booking a couple of big ones that might have gone to them except for this business practice.
I would suggest it is better to track 1,000 actors and only invite 25 -30 to audition for something (based on your understanding of their abilities), rather than invite 300 actors and then cull out to what you think may be the best 30 auditions.
It’s one thing to be competing against hundreds of actors from hundreds of agencies, but to actually compete against hundreds of actors just to be included on the audition reel is a waste of everybody’s time.
By the way, the trick is if you audition for something via Voice 123 for Big Fish and they want to submit you to the client, they send you a private asking you to resubmit your audition at a higher KBPS rate. If you haven’t received those emails then you were not presented to the client.
J.S.,
I always appreciate your thoughtful and cogent comments where ever I encounter them. Thank you for stopping by and contributing here.
Be well,
Bob
hahaha, better late than never J.S, love the Big Fish insights and revelations -and by the way you are a talented guy and I don’t doubt for a moment that you grab your share of bookings and thunder.
But as far as your reporting on our business practices, notsogood, would have been a better idea to inquire within first. I’m always happy to discuss how we are negotiating the waters that are the free-for-all agency rosters in play.
When we have posted an auditon widely on the Internet, we post with the agency fee taken out, since we don’t formally rep these people, we don’t want to quote them a rate and then take a percentage.
The other reason we might post a rate lower is because the rate has not been determined and some online venues discourage and/or deny a tbd rate. In an effort to get it out there quickly, because that is the name of this new game, we come up with a rate we know our talent won’t work any lower than and post quickly.
We actually don’t ask people for retakes at a higher bitrate, though we did when some online vo outlet’s re-encoded upload rates were impossibly lower than they are now. Before smart changes were made, some vo webStops were particularly tough to maneuver, though we’ve always found the Internet a great resource, among many we rely on, when we have a tough audition call.
We send only the best auditions for any project, yes, like any good talent agency does. You can quickly erode your agency’s reputation and the reputation of an individual talent otherwise. If your agent sends every person who auditions for a project, then they aren’t doing their job and next time, the client may not even open their audition folder.
While we will initially send the audition to everyone that qualifies per the specs, we will only send on the auditions to the client that exemplify what they’ve asked for. The two are frankly not always the same. Though everyone we work with is exemplary, many are simply not at every audition. We send the talent who have the best opportunity to nail the job at hand. We’ll always keep expoliting our talent’s strengths and minimize if you will, any audition that does not.
We know the client ultimately chooses a winner, but also recalls all the outstanding talent for future projects. Your ultrashine on any audtion, won or not, beats an also-ran again and again, any day of the week. If we don’t send you for something in particular, it’s in your best interests as well as ours, believe me this.
While apparently your means of discernment is working for you, so are our methods of making sure we give the client exactly what they want. Even if we must troll occasionally outside our borders, and filter en masse subsequently, it pays off for our loyal contingency in spades, when the client finds us a user friendly and thorough resource.
Very good day and all the best to you.
Elynne Dale.
Elynne,
Thank you so much your thoughtful and thorough comments. I so appreciate your participation in the conversation … and even more … the opportunity to work with you.
Be well,
Bob