Career Advice

Today let’s think about what to charge for a long-form recording, like a CD-ROM, an interactive DVD or a large Internet training site.

Some of my friends charge by the “finished minute” for a long project. (e.g.: 60 minutes times $20 per minute = $1200) I’ve never done things that way, but you might find the approach useful as a way to start thinking about the rate you would be comfortable charging. I don’t think there’s a standard rate for this per minute kind of thing.

Here are the AFTRA rates for “non-broadcast” recordings of this sort. The rate is $720 to $904 per day for just the recording, depending on the specific kind of project.

For myself, I look at a project like this and try to calculate how much time and effort it will take and then quote a rate that represents what I consider a fair price for that time and effort. A good rule of thumb is that it takes 1.5 to 4 times the finished length of a project to record and 2 to 3 times the length of the project to edit. (updated)
Some kinds of projects, medical for example, tend to run to the longer end of that margin. If the script is filled with a LOT of very technical jargon (e.g.: polysyllabic chemical and medical terms) In such cases, I add a bit extra for the time it will take to find and verify pronunciations.

I noted previously that I’ve just joined Interactive Voices as a member of their talent roster. Until recently, the only Internet based audition service I was a member of was Voice123.com; which I’ve posted about several times before.

One thing I noticed right away about Interactive Voices that I really liked was the feedback system. At this writing, I haven’t been a member there long enough to get any feedback yet, still it’s nice to know they collect feedback and that the information is shared publicly. I immediately wished that Voice123.com had something similar. And, now I’ve learned that they do, but it’s not visible.

Evidently what happens is that feedback is given by the client after reviewing a submitted demo. There is some kind of a rating system from poor to very good. So, after a talent submits a demo (even a custom demo), the client gives a feedback rating to that talent and his or her demo. But, neither the talent nor the public can see that feedback.

What I propose to Voice123.com is that they change their feedback system so that everyone can see the ratings. As paying members, we should receive the feedback information that our demos generate. It should not be some exclusive secret kept from the public and certainly not from paying talent.

The best on-line feedback systems are those used by sites like Amazon.com, eBay.com or NewEgg.com. There, each person who provides feedback is identified, the rating (individual and cumulative) is visible to everyone, room for comments are provided and on eBay.com, you can even post a response to what you might see as an unfair rating.

As a client of both of Voice123.com and Interactive Voices, it’s interesting to see those things that I prefer at each site. For example, I very much like being able to see how many other auditions have been submitted for a given job when I log in to Voice123.com to respond to an audition opportunity. If the budget isn’t that great or my interest isn’t that high, I can skip the audition if there are already 200 auditions listed. With Interactive Voices, one is left in the dark.

Voice123.com ought to, at minimum, provide us with some way to see our feedback. This is part of the process of working as a professional, being given access to information that can help us improve our work and our business. But in any case, I’m willing to risk negative feedback in order to have the opportunity to audition for paying work.

My correspondent Ann asks an important question:

Hi Bob,

I just got a lead through Voice123.com and was wondering if you would please advise as to how to bill. Should I require 50% upfront and the remainder due upon delivery of finished VO? They want it by Sunday.

I was asking previously for 50% down, but another Voice Talent advised against doing this, stating that it can turn some people off.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Ann

My reply?

Ann,

I’ve been doing voice-overs professionally since 1983. Not once in that time have I ever asked for any money up front. I do normally ask that payment be made “Net 30” or if that’s not likely that I be given a reasonable estimate of when payment can be expected. (Net 30 means that payment is due in full by 30 days after the date of the invoice, which is normally the date of the recording session.)

I too would advise against asking for any payment upfront.

By the way, in all of this time, I have only been left “unpaid” twice. Once by a furniture store that was going out of business. Once by a man I thought was a friend. On the other hand, during that same stretch of time, I’ve been paid by literally thousands of different clients.

I hope this helps.

Be well,
Bob Souer

This comment was e-mailed to me by my frequent correspondent, Ann, in response to my previous note to her:

Thanks Bob. The only problem I have is in getting discouraged after doing so many auditions, competing with a ton of other people. It starts to feel like a waste of time.

Are you familiar with Taldia? I came close to getting work with them. I did all these auditions they wanted only later to find that my bid was rejected for being too high! I tried to negotiate at that point. In fact I didn’t even remember my original bid. I do know it had to have been within their budget. It just seemed really unfair that they would expect me to submit all this extra audition work, only to tell me later that my bid was too high!!

And here are my thoughts in response:

Ann,

Your comments underscore one of the most significant attributes required of someone who is going to work in the voice-over business. You have to be able to deal successfully with rejection.

No one (at least no one healthy) likes being rejected. But, as you are learning, being rejected is the single most common experience in this business. And this is the pivot on which it all turns: you can either see each rejection as something happening to you personally. Or you can see each rejection as a way of discovering which opportunities aren’t right for you at this time. In other words, each time you get rejected, you’ve eliminated one more obstacle between you and a paying job. Once you’ve cleared away all of the remaining obstacles, you’ll reach your immediate goal: getting that paying job. That leads to the next quest, which is finding out how many obstacles remain between you and your next paying job. As so on, and so on.

You’ve mentioned that you have a couple of children and a husband. I suspect that means that there are some areas of your life that, no matter how well or how often you do them, still need to be done again and again. Dishes? Laundry? I don’t want to be sexist in my assumptions, but pretty much every mom and wife has some areas of recurring responsibility of one kind or another. Whatever the case, these are simply examples of other areas of your life where this same principle applies.

The challenge, in other words, is to manage one’s expectations. Yes, it’s unfair to ask you to audition multiple times only to reject your bid as too high. But, at the very least, you received several additional opportunities to hone your auditioning skills. You made it through a number of levels of the process. By the way, at least for me, anyone who rejects my bid because it was too high is someone I don’t want to work for anyway. I want to concentrate my efforts on people who value what I have to offer, not on those who are just trying to get something cheap.

I want to be encouraging to you, Ann, not discouraging. I hope that comes through in what I’ve written here. It is tough being rejected again and again and again. But, stick with it and you’ll find some fruit for your labors.

Be well,
Bob Souer

And I hope these thoughts have been encouraging to you, as well.

Ann,

I noticed that I had failed to answer this question:

By the way, how many auditions do you think the prospective customer actually listens to?

Ann

I’m sure this varies quite a bit from client to client. I do know that no matter how many people have auditioned for a job, if I think I’m right for the job and I want the work, I always audition. And I know for sure that at least twice I’ve been picked out of a pile of 200 or more applicants.

In fact, just the other day, I got a call back from an audition I did where I was one of 16 who were asked to re-audition from a group of more than 200 auditions.

So, the short and sweet of it is, if the job is appealing to you, go ahead and audition. You just never know. Well, you do know one thing: if you don’t audition, you aren’t going to get the job, no matter how right for it you may be.

Be well,
Bob Souer

Here are the latest questions from my correspondent, Ann. I’ll post both questions here, and my responses below them.

Ok, Bob, here’s another Q for you.

When you answer a job post, what type of letter/ proposal do you submit along with your file.

AND

Do you always do a custom demo when that’s requested or do you submit a generic?

I have more questions where these came from!!!

Ann

And my replies:

Ann,

Most of the time, I include only a short “thank you” comment for the opportunity to audition. If it seems like the situation might call for it, I sometimes include my website URL and/or my cell phone number. And even more rarely, I may include a comment about some of my experience or equipment if the job posting seems to require such an explanation. For example, one post recently asked about having some Christmas holiday music added behind the voice track. I indicated in my reply that I had such music in my library and already licensed for such use.

As for the matter of custom demos, yes, if one is requested, I always record one if I’m going to respond to the post at all. I’ve previously commented to you that I don’t reply to every lead/job posting I receive; but if I’m interested and a script is provided, I always record a custom demo.

There are two main reasons for this. First, most of the time clients don’t ask for a custom demo unless they need one. Second, because I want the client to hear how I sound on their actual copy, rather than having to guess what I might sound like based on my standard demo. And to be candid, I don’t believe I’ve been cast a single time yet based on my standard demo. I would guess I’ve received a few leads based on that demo; but no one has contacted me for work (so far as I know) on that basis.

I welcome your next questions.

Be well,
Bob Souer

This is another in my continuing series of questions and answers from a correspondent named Ann. I had written to her previously:

But, yes, if people call to ask you to audition, you do need to make the audition; or they’ll stop calling you.

Her follow up questions were:

Ok, that makes sense. But when are the auditions usually held? Mornings? Days? Evenings? Is there any leeway given to Moms with kids?

And my reply:

Ann,

Auditions are normally held during business hours Monday through Friday. Of course, is writing that, I’m talking about the kind of auditions you go somewhere to record (casting agent, production house, etc.). The auditions from a web site like Voice123.com, as I think you know already, come in when they come it. Rarely, if ever, are ‘in person’ auditions held at any other time. And if there’s any leeway given for Moms with kids, I don’t know about it. If you’re calling to be at a casting agent for an audition at 2:00 PM on a Thursday, you’d probably better plan to be at the casting agent’s office right at 2:00 PM on Thursday, if you want a shot. Of course, when they call to schedule you for the audition, and the time requested doesn’t work, you can see if it’s possible to schedule for a different time slot; but that’s not always going to be possible.

Be well,
Bob Souer

Here are some follow-up questions from my correspondent, and my reply.

Hi Bob,
the key thing for you is to find a good agent who can get you auditions there in your market. You’re non-union, which limits your options somewhat. But, I believe there’s plenty of work if you can find an agent who will get you auditions.
You say here that being non-union limits my options. Would you please explain a little more about that.

Also, would you know of any agents you might recommend? As I have 2 school age kids it’s very challenging to make myself available for auditioning. However if it’s local, that is [in my county] I have a little more leeway. But [going into the city] is totally out of the question. As I was reading in one voice over book you are expected to be available at the drop of a hat for auditions. Working at home allows me more freedom than that. So, I’d love a little more guidance from you there.

Finally, as far as bidding on a job goes, have you ever UNDER bid from the posted budget? At this point I’m ready to bid “FREE” just to get some work already!!!

Thanks so much,
Ann

And my reply:

Hello again, Ann…

In the New York City, Los Angeles and Chicago markets, especially; but in every large city in the US, the vast majority of the decent paying voice-over work is union only (AFTRA or SAG). This applies to commercials for radio (most often AFTRA) and television (most often SAG) as well as narrations for non-broadcast projects. Some non-union work exists of course, but it generally doesn’t pay all that well.

On the other hand, you’ve commented that you’d be willing to do work for free, just for the experience. A young lady I knew in Pittsburgh a few years ago did just that. At the time I was the program director of a small cluster of radio stations there. She contacted me and offered to do voice-over work for the station for free, just for the experience. Within a year, she had gained enough confidence and experience that she was starting to book paying work. The last time I talked with her, she had found an agent and is doing a decent amount of work each month.

So, perhaps that is something you could do. Call the local radio stations there in [your county] and volunteer. It would be a win-win situation, as the station would get some free voice talent and you would gain some valuable experience.

Honestly, I don’t know anything specific about agents [in your market]. Most likely those that are there do more than just voice-over representation. They probably also represent models and on-camera people. Look in your yellow pages or search through Google or Yahoo. Then call and ask if they work with voice-over people. If they do, find out if they will give you a shot.

But, yes, if your agent calls to ask you to audition, you need to do the audition; or they’ll stop calling you. An agent only makes money on you if they book you work, so if you won’t/can’t audition, they aren’t going to be able to get you much work and won’t see you as a valuable talent for their roster.

Under-bid? No. One of the strange paradoxes of this business is that if you sell yourself too short, you actually eliminate work you could be doing. If people think of you as available for $50, then you may not be considered for a job that pays $1000. This is why I don’t audition for jobs that pay too little. And I’ve booked multiple jobs that paid $1000 or more through Voice123.com, so I know it can be done.

I hope that’s answered your questions. You’re welcome to write more, if you like.

Be well,
Bob Souer

Recently I received an email from someone new to the voice-over biz, asking for some advice. Here is the text of the email sent to me, with the contact information removed to preserve the privacy of the sender:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for sending your email address so that I could contact you. As a relatively new talent (subscribed early 2005) to Voice 123 and Interactive Voices I am seeking advice as to how to actually get work on these sites! Would you have any tips for me in this arena?

I look forward to your reply,
Ann

Hopefully my reply will be valuable to the one who asked, and to you:

Hi, Ann…

I took a few minutes to listen to your demos on Voice123.com before writing back. Clearly you have some real talent. It appears to me that you’ve studied hard and worked to put into practice what you’ve studied. Good for you.

As for actually getting work, I can only tell you what I’m doing. After you read the following, you may not think my advice is worth much. (Indeed, it’s likely not worth much more than you’re paying for it. 😉 ) In the last 2 years I’ve auditioned for about 400 jobs. I’ve booked about a dozen of them. Doesn’t sound like all that much, but I’ve made back my subscription fee both years within a month of making the payment. Indeed, I made back my subscription fee several times over within the first 2 months each year.

Now then, to the specifics: As the public leads come in, I evaluate them on the basis of a few factors: Is the client/project something I’d want to work on? (I don’t voice anything to which I object morally, legally or ethically.) Are they paying enough that it’s worth my time? (I don’t audition for anything that pays less than $100 for a spot, or less than $250 for a narration.) How many people have already auditioned? (If the project is marginal to me in any way, and there are more than 50 auditions already posted, I don’t bother auditioning. If the project is strongly appealing to me, I’ll audition even if there are 300 already posted.)

My reasons for listing all the things I DON’T audition for is because it makes little sense (to me anyway) to audition for stuff that I’m not really right for, or that I’m not that interested in. Most of the time, if I audition for that stuff, I don’t get it anyway. I want to give full measure to every audition I do, giving myself the best possible shot. If the project’s not interesting to me or the money’s too low, it’s going to be hard for me to give full measure to the audition.

Having given the audition my best shot, I move on. I never worry about the projects I don’t book. All that would do is drive me crazy trying to figure out what I did wrong. Did I ask for too much money? Did I pick the wrong approach to the copy? Etc., etc., etc. A complete waste of time and energy. Instead, I concentrate on making those that do hire me as happy as humanly possible. For example, any project, no matter how large or complicated, I do all revisions for free. Even if it’s because they change their mind and want to do different copy. Now, I’m not completely crazy. If the entire script is different, that’s not a revision; that’s a whole new project. But, if it’s a few paragraphs, or even a significant chunk, I’m not finished until the client is ecstatic.

Oh, and the money thing? The reason I don’t audition for projects below those levels is because I don’t want to give anyone the idea that I’m available for less than that. If someone has a good, charitable, cause and can’t afford my rates–they can ask me for a free recording session. I’ve done a number of them over the years. And happily. But, only for causes in which I believe and to which I want to contribute.

Maybe some people are making their living off what they book on Voice123.com. I’m certainly not doing that well. The key thing for you is to find a good agent who can get you auditions there in the New York market. You’re non-union, which limits your options somewhat. But, I believe there’s plenty of work if you can find an agent who will get you auditions. Again, auditions you’re right for.

I’m financial core with both major broadcast unions; but the bulk of my work is non-union, too. My main agent is actually based in Pittsburgh, PA and he gets me a bunch of auditions, not just in Pittsburgh, but lots of places. I do far more work through him than through Voice123.com.

So, I hope this has been helpful. If you have any other questions, I hope you’ll write back. I do have a couple of questions for you: how many different Voice123.com people did you contact and ask for help? How many have responded?

I’m going to post your question and my answer to by voice-over blog (https://bobsouer.com/blog/). I don’t use your name in the blog post unless you give me permission; but I do appreciate the opportunity to write down some of these thoughts.

Be well,
Bob Souer